Max Divergent

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Posts by Max Divergent

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  11

  BRITAIN | Man 'glassed in the face' at Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses

  by jwleaks in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  news report.

  13 february 2015 .

  man 'glassed in the face' at kingdom hall of jehovah's witnesses.

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  Max Divergent

  That is truly awful. All thoughts with the victim and their family and friends, let's hope the injuries heal well and the attacker gets the help he needs: like secure accommodation.
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  72

  Does anyone remember a district overseer Joe Slaiman?

  by stuckinarut2 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  joe slaiman and his wife jean were in the travelling work in australia throughout the 90's... ( i may have spelt the name incorrectly).

  anyone remember them?

  they were very well liked by many of the brothers and sisters.. i wonder what happened to him?

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  Max Divergent

  I found an old post of mine on the same topic, written much closer to the time with more details and, no doubt, more accurate than my memory is now of the conversation. Maybe they asked multiple similar questions.

  The point, though, is about whether the focus at the time of departure from the Witnesses is on belief in God and the bible, or acceptance of the organisation.

  For context, I was a third generation JW, a well-liked goody-two-shoes, self-righteous prick and good public speaker who had recently stepped down as an uber-MS and stopped going to meetings. The DO had recently left (that was Joe) and two COs had recently been DF'd while on our circuit.

  For what it's worth, this is a lightly edited excerpt from 13 years ago:

  The question they asked me was something like: 'In your opinion, do the Witnesses present the truth, but that truth isn't for you; or, do you believe the Witnesses do not present the truth'? I replied that I'd given that some thought and checked the dictionary definition for heresy and that seemed to describe the first condition they described. I'd also checked the dictionary definition for apostasy, and that seemed to describe the second condition.

  
  I said that I didn't think that either condition described my position, but that I was acutely aware that my current thoughts were probably wrong and that I couldn't and wouldn't presume to trouble others with it. 'At the end of the day, I'm not sure where I'm at in regard those very serious positions you describe, but I remain absolutely dedicated to truth and goodness. I just don't know about those sorts of really big questions at the moment' (and what's wrong with any of that from the JW point of view?).

  I wasn't subject of any judicial process at all. The point is that you can leave without being DF/DA, if you no do not profess a position against the Society. Private non-belief or un-certainty are fine. I used to assist in the shepherding of 'inactive ones' (ie: those who'd left on their own terms and weren't DF/DA), some I had met on the doors and had no idea had been JWs.

  The attitude of the elders seemed fourfold:

  1) calling was a duty,

  2) it was just a matter of being nice and letting them know they could come back,

  3) it didn't matter what sins they were committing (de facto relationships, smoking etc), and

  4) it was easy field service hours, often complete with tea and cake, so long as they weren't identifying as JWs.
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  72

  Does anyone remember a district overseer Joe Slaiman?

  by stuckinarut2 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  joe slaiman and his wife jean were in the travelling work in australia throughout the 90's... ( i may have spelt the name incorrectly).

  anyone remember them?

  they were very well liked by many of the brothers and sisters.. i wonder what happened to him?

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  Max Divergent

  I would think a guy like me with a family still in would be asked by the elders if I believed or not in the Bible

  In my time as a JW, and I don't think anything has changed, the question asked (as best I remember from 1998) was something like whether one accepts that the Faithful and Discreet Slave had something or other to do the the Society and the congregation and God. 

  I responded that if my answer was 'yes' then I was a heretic since I wasn't participating in the congregation and if my answer was 'no' then I might be an apostate. And since I was neither of those things, I said, (a lie - I was both) I didn't know the answer to the question (also a lie - I knew the answer). 

  One seemed amused (he'd been a friend for years and was as liberal as a JW elder gets), the other (hard core) got a bit annoyed and (correctly) said I was smoke screening. I didn't answer and that was about the end of the conversation.

  That's the reality. If you're not accused of a 'gross sin' (and non-belief is not a gross sin) and don't criticize or question the organisation and you don't hang around the KH like a bad smell, you shouldn't get DF/DA.

  But I'd guess most departing JWs do one of those things. 

  
  
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  72

  Does anyone remember a district overseer Joe Slaiman?

  by stuckinarut2 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  joe slaiman and his wife jean were in the travelling work in australia throughout the 90's... ( i may have spelt the name incorrectly).

  anyone remember them?

  they were very well liked by many of the brothers and sisters.. i wonder what happened to him?

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  Max Divergent

  you have the audacity to ask us to bury the hatchet, endure the pain and suffering and agony and as you say...'move on and enjoy what is left of it in contentment and happiness'.

  Maybe in a quiet moment JW GoneBad might reflect on the gap between what Joe wrote and the response.

  Joe reflected positively on what life has for us and asked no one to bury or endure anything, including WTS induced pain, suffering or agony.  

  Moving on in contentment and happiness in no way precludes one from contributing to the recovery of others, however any individual might go about doing that. 

  In fact, I'd be as bold as to suggest that someone who has moved on into contentment and happiness might be a more effective advocate for any cause that one still mired in bitterness and hate. 

  
  
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  72

  Does anyone remember a district overseer Joe Slaiman?

  by stuckinarut2 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  joe slaiman and his wife jean were in the travelling work in australia throughout the 90's... ( i may have spelt the name incorrectly).

  anyone remember them?

  they were very well liked by many of the brothers and sisters.. i wonder what happened to him?

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  Max Divergent

  ... religious authority, on the other hand, is only valid and effective through the voluntary acceptance by the individual. So it is authority by acceptance.

  This is just how I reasoned, by coincidence in 1998, when I determined I would not allow myself to be subjected to disfellowshiping or disassociation. I would not subject myself to their processes after I determined I was neither a Witness nor a believer of any other kind, and all of that simply became irrelevant. I deflected the questions of two elders who came to visit me, and when they asked for a second meeting I said they were always welcome at my home, but I had nothing religious to discuss with them. That was the end of it.  

  Two or three years later I was visited by an elder-special pioneer and his special pioneer wife, he was given my new address by an elder. I told him I did not believe in the bible or God, and I recall his response. He said, after a pause and some evident contemplation, something close to 'Oh, so in that case you would find it impossible to accept the Faithful and Discreet Slave and the role of the Watchtower Society and the congregation?'. I agreed, and said nothing of the Society (mostly since I would have considered it rude to criticise what was obviously important to him). We went on to have a few pleasant enough conversations on both the bible and general topics, neither of us tried hard to convince the other of anything and there was no question of any kind of proceedings against me whatsoever. Like Joe said, I did not accept their authority and they did not try to impose it. 

  I have never criticised the Society in the company of Witness. That allows me to have occasional, quite normal contact with the few Witnesses I still know or come across form time-to-time, and we take one another's company for what it is.

  This third road out of the Witnesses is available, but is either not possible or not palatable for many departing Witnesses.   
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  72

  Does anyone remember a district overseer Joe Slaiman?

  by stuckinarut2 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  joe slaiman and his wife jean were in the travelling work in australia throughout the 90's... ( i may have spelt the name incorrectly).

  anyone remember them?

  they were very well liked by many of the brothers and sisters.. i wonder what happened to him?

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  2. 
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  Max Divergent

  Joe, thank you so much for responding here. You were so well liked and well regarded, and your gracious post here shows in small part why. I am glad you were able to separate from the organisation in such a dignified way. While I'm sure it was a very difficult time for everyone involved, the respect you showed by explaining your position showed more courage than most of us here have been able to. And it seems to reflects well on the brothers that they did not call for a committee given your altered view. I stopped attending and offered no explanation as to why to protect myself from being accused of apostasy (I no longer believed in God, thus could not continue as a Witness either). I've sometimes reflected since on what impact my way of leaving might have had on those who had been my friends for years before.

  While I prefer anonymity on the internet, please in any case accept our very best wishes and know that you're remembered warmly and that we're thrilled to learn you and Jean are happy and well.  

  
  

   
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  12

  would jehovah find himself disfellowshipped?

  by sowhatnow in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  so lets assume that the current jw use of disfellowshipping was used back in jesus day, .

  who of the bible characters would find themselves disfellowshipped?

  jehovah?

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  Max Divergent

  I'd only suggest that since the GB is the faithful and discreet slave and fulfils the effective role of Jehovah too (since no one else does), then 'Jehovah' could only be DF'd if He publicly disagreed with the GB. 

  The practical nonsensical reality seems to be that the JW all-in-one-God is:

  • GB the Father;
  • GB the Son; 
  • GB the Holy Spirit; and
  • GB the Faithful and Discreet Slave (which doesn't conventionally have God status, being a slave. But at a practical level if the GB is the FDS, then the FDS must be God too).
    

  
  

  Thus, Jehovah is on thin ice. He's already been removed and has no privileges. He can't even answer at meetings. The GB is steadily replacing Him or any need for Him to be around. 
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  21

  Man is designed to be God-oriented, shows new scientific study!

  by abiather in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  meditation slows age-related loss of grey matter in the brain, finds a new study.

  (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/02/150205142951.htm) (see also http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/10/health/can-meditation-really-slow-aging/index.html).

  when we eat certain type of food, it shows how it affects our body.

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  Max Divergent

  Almost everyone who meditates are agnostic at least.

  True, but you could say "Almost everyone who farts is agnostic at least" since atheists are a small minority of the world's population. Meditation of one kind or another is found in most cultures and religions; therefore most mediators and [human] farters are agnostic or believers. 

  But meditation has observed mental and physical benefits and belief in deities is not needed to practice it. 
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  73

  Will my inactive JW bring our children up as a witness?

  by stevepill in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i have been with an in active jw for 6 years, she now wants to marry and have a child, will she want to bring a child up as a witness, she says not but any experiences?

  will she start go back once we are married?

  (i'm a non jw)

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  Max Divergent

  A believing Witness won't date a non-JW, certainly not for six years, she won't marry him either. She might be effectively a former Witness if she's wanting to make her life with you. You're obviously not with a regular, hard-core, believing JW.

  Therefore our experiences may be of only partial help to understand her evidently idiosyncratic relationship with the religion.

  Whatever's been going on for the last six years might be a fair guide to what the future might hold? 
  
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  21

  Man is designed to be God-oriented, shows new scientific study!

  by abiather in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  meditation slows age-related loss of grey matter in the brain, finds a new study.

  (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/02/150205142951.htm) (see also http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/10/health/can-meditation-really-slow-aging/index.html).

  when we eat certain type of food, it shows how it affects our body.

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  Max Divergent

  We create experiments that can test and verify these laws [of physics]. If we follow the same scientific practice, then we will have to say God initiated the universe,  He created it. 

  No. If we conduct experiments they we should say what the results of those experiments are and what the results mean. We can't ascribe experimental results to God, even if we don't fully understand the topic being studied and the results seem mysterious.

  As you correctly say:

  Just because we don't know, it means we don't know—that’s all!